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Post by bruce on Nov 27, 2017 16:37:12 GMT -7
I just slapped it together for a quick pic and a ride to the scale. 42.5 lbs. I rode it about a 1/4 mile. The front fork bottoms just sitting on it and clangs loudly while riding. Lol. I'm going to pull it apart and see what I can do. Maybe install some urethane bushings, or just bolt it solid. I like the ergos. Time to start the fettling.
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Post by gatorbite on Nov 28, 2017 15:26:20 GMT -7
How much room is there between the back tire and the upper and lower frame? Like would a full 3 inch wide tire fit alright? Its a bitchin looking frame and color.
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Post by genericmember on Nov 28, 2017 18:14:44 GMT -7
I have never taken a cheaper fork apart but wonder if there's spring in each leg, maybe one is broken or missing. Maybe huffy would send you a new fork if they think it has a problem. On fatter 29er, one would think it shouldn't depress so much just sitting there. I do like the bike.
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Post by bruce on Nov 28, 2017 19:55:19 GMT -7
A full 3" width tire would easily fit. I measured 3.4" at that point.
I looked at the forks and they are not worth trying to improve. They have springs in both legs, but I'm fat (250) and they don't stand a chance. Lol. The movement is so rough that I've decided to just install a few screws in the sides and make them rigid.
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Post by bruce on Nov 29, 2017 22:42:40 GMT -7
Tonight I decided to see what I could do with the forks. I found a few extensions and tried loosening the allen screws in the fork. It seemed like they broke loose but then just turned instead of coming out. Oddly enough, the action became really smooth. I tried to see if I could bottom the fork and then it made a "pop" at the end of the stroke. Now they are back to feeling really rough. I'll take another stab at it tomorrow.
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Post by desertbikes on Dec 3, 2017 7:36:54 GMT -7
Any luck? Our stock fork is usually stamped & press-fit so it's not meant to come apart for service. People have tried motor oil soaking, grease packing, aircraft lubes, you name it. That's for the tight ones. Compressing too easily is probably unsolvable - well, not without major experimental surgery. I'll measure a couple of my standard 29er forks & see if a 3" tire will fit. I ran 2.5" on 2 & think there was still plenty of room. That would open some inexpensive options for you, if they fit. Will let you know later today.
Surprised about the weight. That's not bad at all. Pacific/mongoose may be learning. It also means the tires aren't 5 or 6 lbs a piece either which had been a sore spot on all their fat bikes until recently.
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Post by bruce on Dec 3, 2017 8:13:02 GMT -7
I came to the conclusion that the bolts were either stripped or riveted at the bottom to keep them from coming apart. I decided to make them rigid and buy a better set of forks if I really like the bike. Thanks for checking the dimensions on your other 29er forks. I've done some searching, and it's really hard to find a set of forks for rim brakes in plus size. Here's how I made them rigid: I also decided to use the bars and headset from my Mongoose Malus. I had to make a spacer from a piece of aluminum tubing. It was too small, so I split it. I'll let you know if it fails.
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Post by bruce on Dec 3, 2017 20:02:27 GMT -7
I finished the lube/reassembly process and took it for a brief ride in the dark using a flashlight on my head. Here are some random observations:
I didn't find any machining swarf in the bearings. The hubs had plenty of grease and felt smooth. I still cleaned out the Chinese grease and packed everything with marine grease.
The bottom bracket was smooth, but had just a very light coat of grease.
Crank arms are aluminum.
Rim brakes work fine for my use. Later I'll install some quality cables and pads. Maybe.
I really like the twist shifters. They are much better than the one on my Mongoose Malus.
I lowered the tire pressure to 22 psi. I had no problem riding in my soft yard and hayfield. The rigid fork didn't seem to beat me up.
I'm getting some creaking from the bottom bracket when pedaling. I'm guessing I didn't get the bearing preload right?
The seat stinks. A new seatpost and seat will be my next purchase.
The Malus stem and handlebars are back towards me about an inch and a few inches wider. I like the ergos.
I still need to adjust the derailers.
Overall a great deal for $85.
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Post by desertbikes on Dec 3, 2017 21:30:23 GMT -7
Good info on all points. People often say, screw that fork! By golly you did. Yeah, maybe hit the BB with a bit more torque & then again in 50 mi or so. Measurements - The old stock fork off the Deception has 3 1/4 inches at the narrowest point - the seals at the top of the lower tubes. The stock Genesis 29er & the Suntour XCR both have 3 3/8 clearance. Although your tire is taller it doesn't look like that would be a issue. Of course they're all disk forks but you can get a rotor/caliper set for $15 or so & a have front disk. What's the rim width? Not sure you need a fat specific 29er wheel. I see 29er disk front wheels for $50-70ish sometimes. Lots of fork take-offs for sale after xmas too. Everybody wants to upgrade. And now that I think of it, you're welcome to the front rotor & caliper off my Hitch if you find a fork. I'd send you a fork but it probably cost more in shipping than its worth. Although the stock Deception fork is notoriously stiff. And I was 265 lbs back then too
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Post by bruce on Dec 4, 2017 16:36:01 GMT -7
Good info on all points. People often say, screw that fork! By golly you did. Yeah, maybe hit the BB with a bit more torque & then again in 50 mi or so. Measurements - The old stock fork off the Deception has 3 1/4 inches at the narrowest point - the seals at the top of the lower tubes. The stock Genesis 29er & the Suntour XCR both have 3 3/8 clearance. Although your tire is taller it doesn't look like that would be a issue. Of course they're all disk forks but you can get a rotor/caliper set for $15 or so & a have front disk. What's the rim width? Not sure you need a fat specific 29er wheel. I see 29er disk front wheels for $50-70ish sometimes. Lots of fork take-offs for sale after xmas too. Everybody wants to upgrade. And now that I think of it, you're welcome to the front rotor & caliper off my Hitch if you find a fork. I'd send you a fork but it probably cost more in shipping than its worth. Although the stock Deception fork is notoriously stiff. And I was 265 lbs back then too I rode the Torch back to back with my Malus today. Ride was down a rough, hilly, rutted farm road leading to my soybean field and then around the field, across a hayfield, and finishing with a gravel lane. I like them both, but have to give the nod to the Malus for it's ability to absorb bumps and float over the soft stuff. However, on the smoother stuff I really like how the Torch rolls and picks up speed quickly. I know the rigid fork makes it ride a lot rougher, but the ride was almost good enough as is. The Torch is definitely a keeper and worth spending some money on. So, thanks for the generous offer. I guess I'd have to lace up a new hub if I wanted to use a disk brake? The stock rim width is 39mm on the outside. At this point I think I'd like to stay with the rim brakes and see just how cheaply I can make a decent bike out of it. It sounds like all of the 29er forks will have enough room for a 2.8" tire. Now I'm going to see about getting rid of that creaking noise....
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Post by bruce on Dec 4, 2017 17:32:49 GMT -7
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Post by bruce on Dec 5, 2017 20:20:40 GMT -7
I tightened the bottom bracket some but it didn't help the creaking. The creaking is happening on each pedal power stroke. I held the brakes and pushed on one pedal firmly and could see the freewheel pull forward which I think is from the axle flexing. I assume someone makes a heavy-duty rear axle?
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Post by bruce on Dec 6, 2017 19:08:56 GMT -7
I changed the freewheel and no change in the creaking.
I changed the pedal arms/chain ring and no change in the creaking.
The frame is extremely resonant. The slightest touch makes it ring. I think it's due to the large down tube and likely thin metal. So maybe the creaking is coming from the drop outs/rear axle/freewheel/hub flexing? I guess I'll just ride it creaking until it croaks.
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Post by desertbikes on Dec 7, 2017 10:14:33 GMT -7
The RST forks used to have a US rep. There was an issue with an RST air fork the one you linked looks good for your riding. Better if you can find a US rep/sales outlet in case there are problems.
As far as a 29er specific wheel, they're based on the 400c standard, that's not a measurement, its a standard. 29er is a tire size, not a wheel size. 29ers are a 400c wheel with a wither rim - which is not standardized either. But most 29er rims are 22mm & up. The fat 29er tire bead will seat on any "29er" wheel. i.e. my Huffy millennial cruiser 29er has the same rim width as your torch. Would not be surprised if it has the same single wall rim too. My point is, any disk ready "29er" wheel will likely accomodate the semi-fat 29er tire. The bead will seat & that's what counts. Keep in mind too, a standard wheel advertised as 400c is likely to have a narrow rim, in which case the tire will roll off the rim at low pressures.
Front wheel flex - assuming you rechecked the headset to be sure it was tight. Be sure to lift the fork/wheel off the ground by the crown when checking for play in the fork tube & stem. Let the fork sit on the lower race when checking. There is some flex in every 29er fork/wheel I've seen, regardless of fork/wheel combos. Even rigid forks. If it came with 9 mm QR, solids would likely be better on that bike in your weight class but you would star bending the rear axle first if they were an issue at all. Perhaps check the cone nuts again now that its been ridden a bit.
I had a similar BB problem with the beast after one monsoon season. Ended up tearing it all down again, stripping & regreasing, reinstalling, and it went away. Never really knew what it was but a "quick" rework cured the problem. I guess frame flex causing the creaking is possible but seems unlikely unless a failure is in the works. Even handle bars flexing at the stem can creak like that.
BTW - the frame is steel, not alum, yes?
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Post by bruce on Dec 7, 2017 15:46:51 GMT -7
Yes, it's a steel frame.
I'm not having trouble with front wheel flex, it's the freewheel I was watching flex. I removed it and couldn't believe how much slop it had in the hub. I swapped it out for a Mongoose freewheel which had very little play between the hub and gear assembly.
The creaking occurs at each power stroke and doesn't happen when I'm coasting. That would lead me to believe it's in the powertrain somewhere.
I rode it about 30 minutes tonight. I just ignored the creaking and enjoyed the ride.
Thanks for the wheel info. I guess I'd be better off getting a new wheel with disk brakes. That would open up a lot of fork options.
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Post by desertbikes on Dec 7, 2017 19:09:41 GMT -7
After the Malus, you should be a freewheel expert I keep going back to the headset & fork for the creak, considering the modifications in that area. Someday you'll do something & it will go away, but by then you'll probably have forgotten about it anyway. Freewheel, not front wheel - reading this stuff on a phone doesn't always cut it.
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Post by desertbikes on Dec 7, 2017 19:15:44 GMT -7
Especially at 80 mph, not that I would do that...of course
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Post by bruce on Dec 7, 2017 19:54:27 GMT -7
After the Malus, you should be a freewheel expert I keep going back to the headset & fork for the creak, considering the modifications in that area. Someday you'll do something & it will go away, but by then you'll probably have forgotten about it anyway. Freewheel, not front wheel - reading this stuff on a phone doesn't always cut it. Lol, yea, I learned a lot from the Malus. I tightened the rear hub bearings slightly tonight and reinstalled the Huffy freewheel. No change in the creak. I get where you'd blame my fork "mod", but I checked the head bearings several times and they are on the snug side of perfect now. They were slightly loose at first. No change in the creak. During coasting I've bounced around, braked hard, turned hard, ridden rough ground - and there is no creak. I can lightly pedal on smooth level ground and I get the creak. It is the loudest when the pedal arm is parallel to the ground and I'm exerting the most force in the pedaling cycle. If it was my fork or head bearings the creaking would show up riding on rough ground or when I'm bouncing around on the bike.
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Post by bruce on Dec 8, 2017 19:06:02 GMT -7
I give up. I still have the creak. Here is what I did today: Note: I test rode the bike after each change.
Regreased the bottom bracket, made sure the hub mating surface was free of paint and flat, and retorqued.
Installed a sealed bottom bracket and complete crankset from my Trek 950. This totally eliminated the crankset from the possible causes. Still creaks.
Checked and slightly tightened head bearings.
Removed screws from the front fork to restore factory movement.
Collapsed fork and installed screws in that position so that fork had maximum overlap.
Held bike by the top tube with front in the air and pushed on a pedal while holding the rear tire with the other hand. This totally eliminated the front from the list of possible causes. Still creaks.
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Post by bruce on Dec 9, 2017 16:54:38 GMT -7
Mental illness is a funny thing... So anyway, today I decided to try two more things. The freewheel was bottoming on the end of the threads instead of the end of the wheel hub so I turned a shim to get a solid fit between the freewheel hub and the wheel hub. I did the same thing on my Malus. I believe that having the hub bottom out on the threads is a manufacturing shortcut rather than good mechanical practice. Then I found thick washers for bolting the rear axle in the dropouts. The stock washers are made of cheese and deform easily. Further, the chainstays are pulled in when tightening the axle nuts so I put a thick washer on each side. The axle now is the same width as the distance between the dropouts and the washers are thick and solid. Results: Creaking greatly diminished, and going away the more I rode today. It was in the 20s and snowing so I didn't ride much. Lol. One benefit to this fiasco is that I know this bike inside and out. Everything works smoothly and it rides solid now. OCD for the win.
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Post by desertbikes on Dec 10, 2017 5:25:50 GMT -7
I think a lot of bike guys are recipients of ADD OCD awards I'm headed to the freezing midwest myself with the Deception on board. I expect the only creaking I'll hear will be from my knees. So, the noise may have been from the dropouts flexing as you first thought?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 19:00:22 GMT -7
Mental illness is a funny thing... So anyway, today I decided to try two more things. The freewheel was bottoming on the end of the threads instead of the end of the wheel hub so I turned a shim to get a solid fit between the freewheel hub and the wheel hub. I did the same thing on my Malus. I believe that having the hub bottom out on the threads is a manufacturing shortcut rather than good mechanical practice. Then I found thick washers for bolting the rear axle in the dropouts. The stock washers are made of cheese and deform easily. Further, the chainstays are pulled in when tightening the axle nuts so I put a thick washer on each side. The axle now is the same width as the distance between the dropouts and the washers are thick and solid. Results: Creaking greatly diminished, and going away the more I rode today. It was in the 20s and snowing so I didn't ride much. Lol. One benefit to this fiasco is that I know this bike inside and out. Everything works smoothly and it rides solid now. OCD for the win. thats dedication!
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Post by bruce on Dec 12, 2017 14:53:50 GMT -7
Thanks. I rode it for about 30 minutes yesterday around a muddy soybean field. It did surprisingly well- other than the bean stubble getting in the chain/derailer.
Speaking of which, the one on it really stinks. I've spent a lot of time adjusting it and then it bends out of alignment easily. I kind of feel sorry for the 15 year old kid who gets one of these bikes.
So now I'm off to look for a decent cheap derailer. Or at least make a stronger mounting system.
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Post by gatorbite on Jun 3, 2018 7:33:46 GMT -7
That is a great looking bike. Id like to try the extra big hoops some time. Don't think I could put that much work in a new bike tho.
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Post by fatdaddy61 on Jun 5, 2018 16:58:29 GMT -7
I saw one yesterday for the first time at a yard sale. Great looking bike. would like to know if the OP still uses it or had anymore problems.
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